In this opening episode I share my story of being a Long Distance parent and adjusting to life with a child overseas. It is an insightful conversation with practicing psychologist Todd Kettner Ph.D, as we reflect on the need for Dads to seek help and support each other, embracing our emotions and tackling the challenges of everyday life as a parent. Todd Kettner Ph.D, a practicing psychologist and fellow Dad who will be a regular guest on the show to offer his wisdom and insight on the topic of parenting. Todd is a college lecturer and runs a private practice working exclusively with men. He also has a wealth of experience working with children and families. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dadwithoutborders/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Dad-Without-Borders-104442641427419 Website: https://dad-without-borders-e10084dc.simplecast.com/
Blue Netherclift 1:01
So welcome to the introductory episode of dad without borders. Now this episode is going to be a little bit different to the rest. In the In this episode, I'm really focusing on my story. And reflecting on that story with Todd Katonah, who will be a regular guest on the show as a psychologist and father of two. So I thought what better way to start the podcast than actually acknowledge my story, and set the stage for why I'm doing this podcast? Well, awesome. Todd, thank you so much for, for jumping in and joining in with the podcast. I'm glad we could make this happen to you. I appreciate you are very busy man. And thanks for taking time. So you're just gonna dive straight in. And I know you're a clinical psychologist and father of two.
Todd Kettner 1:46
Yeah, so a fairly traditional family here, wife and two kids. And now we have one teenager at home and another young adult who's back and forth a little bit. And lived in Nelson for 20 years, except for a couple years. One in the Caribbean, one in Toronto, so Oh, yeah. around a little bit. So that's,
Blue Netherclift 2:08
are you guys, you guys from? Where are you from? Originally? I feel like you're from the prairie lands. Is that right?
Todd Kettner 2:13
And I did spend a couple of years over in Manitoba but grew up mostly in Hong Kong. And Preston. Oh, wow. very exotic. Super urban. Super rural.
Blue Netherclift 2:26
Wow. Yeah. Good mix. And was Nelson the move for the family? Oh, yeah,
Todd Kettner 2:32
I was worked here. And I decided we wanted to live and we moved here when our daughter was about four months old.
Blue Netherclift 2:37
So and then when terms of work so as a clinical psychologist, what what is your work background? I know you do some counseling and some teaching, maybe you could just give us a quick rundown?
Todd Kettner 2:48
Yeah, for sure. Um, as I was thinking about graduate school, I met with the the only psychologist in Creston, and he said, Hey, if you want to live in a small town, try and do a bit of everything be a bit of a jack of all trades. So I took that to heart and my training, rotations and ended up being spending some time doing adult therapy, and some child therapy child assessment. And later on, got into some family assessment for six or seven years.
Blue Netherclift 3:21
And you still do private work with men? Is it? Oh,
Todd Kettner 3:27
yeah, right now I have a very small private practice. I used to be full time private practice for years and years. Now I teach full time at Selkirk college undergraduate psychology courses and various my private practice on the side. And I just as a way of meeting a population that doesn't have a lot of men to work with. Yeah, decided to sort of limit my practice because I can refer other individuals to other places.
Blue Netherclift 3:55
Yeah, right. So now I've had three great conversations with dads or very different backgrounds. It's been really interesting, actually. And I've got another one tomorrow, and people seem really keen, it's really interesting. I know, I'd shared with you my idea of doing this. If I reached I've got probably eight, nine, maybe even 10 dads currently lined up. Some of you I've already talked to, if I found any of them up, and said, hey, let's go down to the river. And let's go and talk about our feelings and just have a walk. It'd be really hard pinning any of them down. I know this from experience, but everybody seems really keen and they're hungry to talk. And they're really excited about the podcast. So I'm really encouraged by this journey that I'm just starting here. But part of the reason I'm doing this is because I have a story that I'm I'm sort of wanting to share my experience in terms of losing custody of my kids. And you know, my son, my seven year old now, lives overseas. And so I see him in the holidays. We FaceTime most days. I'm really I get messages from his teacher. I'm in contact with the school So I'm really engaged. And it's not been easy. So I'm I've had to be really resilient and keep pushing to maintain as much contact as I want to have, which is as much as I think
Todd Kettner 5:11
you have to be creative to in order to make some of these things work, right. Sometimes it's hard for parents, even in the same household are separated in the same town to both have contact with teachers. And I imagine, you know, you've made that happen. It didn't just happen naturally.
Blue Netherclift 5:28
Yeah, the which is where I've gained some hope, I feel is that actually, through that day to day contact, even FaceTime, like, wow, FaceTime is such a lifesaver. I mean, I can't imagine doing this on the phone.
Todd Kettner 5:42
Yeah, it just, it's a whole new avenue for maintaining contact, right. And there's something about, you know, whether it's scheduled phone calls, or scheduled FaceTime, which is obviously much richer, you can read stories to go play games together, you can do a bunch of stuff. There's something about having that scheduled time that is a unique, you know, kind of positive side effect of parents when they're away working or in your face, where you're on different continents from a kid, that there's something there's a routine that allows a container and a space and a schedule and a commitment to spending that amount of time together, you know, x times a week.
Blue Netherclift 6:21
Yeah, no, it's magic. And it has been every day. But of course, as school becomes more involved in activities outside of school and things, it gets a little trickier. But yeah, I think right now, the last sort of visitation plan that we have, which hopefully will stick now for a while, is minimum three days a week, but it was really sweet, actually, the judge, this is in the UK. And it was a great experience, actually in court just recently. She actually said it three times a week minimum. But I like to think that it's every day. And I thought that was really lovely. Actually. She acknowledged that as a parent herself. I was Yeah, I felt really good about that. And so yeah, it
Todd Kettner 7:02
is a floor on it, she said a floor on it, but said the ceiling is limitless. Yeah. So many
Blue Netherclift 7:07
experiences before were really fraught with, you know, mother versus dad. But this was all about visitation, it was all about making sure there was a balance, and that both parents had an equal share of the holidays, just an acknowledgement of how important it was for Seth to come and spend a quality amount of time here in Canada, which was, which meant a lot to me, actually, because that's what I've always ultimately been, you know, trying to get. Yeah, super encouraging. It's the first time that I felt, I don't know that I was being respected as a father, I think I feel like you have, you're someone who can have a very balanced view with your sort of professional background. And I feel like I have to acknowledge what has happened in the past. But try and do it in a way that isn't like in a heavy, dark, negative kind of way. So I would just like to share with you these quotes from I was after the trial that happens. And of course, so the background being mom was here to be with me, relationship doesn't work. Mom wants to go back, I have a hard time giving up my son. So I decided that I don't want that to happen. So it was really this back and forth, or, you know, argument in court, essentially. And in the end, the judge decided that the best decision was the charge to go with the Mum, but that I would have access when I was available. And you know, there'd be visitation plan in place. But this is the this is a quote from one of the witnesses in my one of my witnesses. And so this is the quote, I listened to the lawyers final statement against blue. And it was hard to just sit there and listen to the distorted story that he wove and watch the judge try and help him build on his case. Blue, you have been inspirational to me over these years as a father, friend and member of our community, you are resilient and resourceful. And that to me, just kind of summed it up in a way that was really nice for me to hear, because I had a witness to, to what wasn't really necessarily. I mean, I don't even know how to put into words, really. But it was just the fact that it was frustrating that it would all come down to two lawyers arguing with a judge that doesn't really know us. And a decision made that was fairly harsh against me as the dad. And I don't know, it's just hard. I think that's the one thing that I had a hard time with was doing everything as a dad, in terms of like showing up your kid and being really present. And then the end of the day, the judge in the judgment, stated that he further He further compromises his earning potential by devoting too much time to his son. And that really sums up the decision really, that I was just not enough in terms of making enough money, and I was being scolded for spending too much time with my son. Yeah, awareness was there saying That's a distortion of what's actually been going on. And I've had to just I've had to just accept that. And I think that's the biggest word that I could use for my experience is acceptance.
Todd Kettner 10:11
Well, first of all, you know, it's, it's, it's one of the hardest things parents can go through, right? It's not the hardest, but it's one of the hardest is, is being to a point with, you know, an ex partner where that level of outsider judgment ruling, weighing, weighing all the factors comes into play, right. And it's not an unusual situation. And so people who, you know, in my experience, who move through that well, are able to, you know, acknowledge how tough it is, you know, you just talked about that, as well as, are able to absorb the positives. That may be sometimes few and far between, but you have this individual who, who not only sounds like they knew you as a person, as a dad, but was able to step back with you. Wait, wait a minute. If it's more important, you know, for this for my kid to move across the ocean, because I'm not, I'm spending too much time. My kid, like, you know, it's an oxymoron, right? And so to, you know, not everyone has that person, or people or, you know, cohort, group group of friends and family and colleagues in their corner. And so, I would say to, you know, dads who are going through this process that's really important to build in. And, you know, it might be a little bit of a stretch, given what you started this podcast with, about, Hey, I can't just say, hey, let's go walk by the lake and talk about our feelings. But, you know, what, is it moves towards the possibility of a court? discussion, I think it's really important. And whether it's a chairlift ride to talk to do is, you know, we're not framing it often is when it's talking about our feelings, but when we say, Hey, can I pick your brain? About my kid? What's going on with my kid right now? Or, I've got some challenges as a dad, can I just, like, run it by you and see what you think? You know, 99 out of 100 mates will say, Yeah, sure.
Blue Netherclift 12:31
Let's go. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I felt like it for me it was I feel like I just hid away I was focused on spending as much time with Seth is like a when I had him because we, the mean, the great thing was, we were 5050. There was never an argument like that, you know, the mom has been great in that regard. Like there's never been, you know, if I lived down the road from her now, there wouldn't be an argument about us sharing time equally, which is awesome. Like they you know, there are those positives in that for sure. It was just a difficult situation where two people just had, I would say, different worldviews. You know, I mean, if you say, Take living in Vancouver to living here, where we live in the mountains, like it's a very different lifestyle. So there was that. And then I had a dad the other day that I was talking to, there was interested in his big piece of advice, and he raised his son on his own his son's now 22 years old. And his mom is overseas, so in the US, but his dad's fully raised him. And his his advice for anyone moving forward would be I don't worry about the judgment, ignore the judgment, because people are gonna judge you, people are gonna think things, but really, nobody knows you. And those that do know you, they know you. And to not take that on board. And I, I hadn't thought of it that way. You're right, it's having that. Yeah, it's having that family of, you know, circle of friends around you that you can lean on, but being being brave enough almost to reach out to them, and say, hey, look, I need help. And I wasn't very good at that.
Todd Kettner 14:03
Yeah, you're really touching on something there blue that, you know, in both my personal and professional life, I think I'm still learning and I hope like continue to learn on this that what sometimes seems, you know, in stereotypical kind of gender roles to be weakness, you know, in other words, not doing it on my own as this lone wolf individual takes a lot of courage, right? Because we're not only, you know, sharing intimate parts of ourselves and our experiences with people and allowing them to be in that with us. But we're, we're being courageous and in saying that I don't have all the answers, especially at this period of my life, you know, whereas now, you know, your son's still on the other side of the Atlantic for many months of the majority of months of the year, and you're finding a way to work out and work it out, work through it. And now you're one of the guys that has the ability to, you know, even in conversations with people maybe don't know that well with your podcast, or people you do know well with the podcast, where you can be, you know, in this in this outer circle for for other dads, right, totally together and Matt, increasingly in small communities. You know, in society increasingly, I mean, there's a rich history and tradition of motherhood and womanhood, and doing being in circles with
Blue Netherclift 15:41
each other. Right, exactly that, you can do that,
Todd Kettner 15:45
oh, we're getting somewhere.
Blue Netherclift 15:47
With that, too. I see, as you're mentioning that it's interesting to think of the dads role in terms of strength. And I remember I was just thinking today, actually, that I haven't cried in front of Seth, my boy. And because I feel like it would be showing some weakness to him. And potentially, if I do that, maybe he won't express his emotions, because he, if he, if he's worried about me, breaking down in some way, maybe he won't, and it'll hold back. And so I've kind of been, and I'm not once I generally speaking, I I'm pretty well held together. And, you know, I have sad thoughts. And you know, it's hard to let him go sometimes when he goes back to the UK, but this year walking away from the skate park, and it said goodbye to his friend for the last time for the moment, he'll see him again, an Easter. But, uh, I said, move I was there, and he didn't quite, and then suddenly he starts crying. And he's really kind of, you know, he's having a moment for sure. And it is the last day we're here together before he goes back. And so I went down to hug him, and I couldn't fit like him crying a me night. And so I started to like, my voice was broken. And I had shades on, and he couldn't see. And I wasn't bluffing. But it was definitely like, there was tears, you're probably a couple of tears rolling down the cheek. And, and he suddenly stopped and he kind of like, as we're hugging, he kind of backs off to grab my shades to move them. So it's like, what you're quite you have tears come out of your eyes. Like he had this moment. And it was funny, and I, I wasn't sure which way to go. I wasn't sure. Actually. I was thinking, Okay, I want to talk I got a man up here and show my kid that this is like, you know, dude, but then at the same time, I don't know, I'm not I'm still not sure what the right thing to do in that situation. Other than, you know, just be very authentic with him. But yeah, what do you think about that
Todd Kettner 17:43
the word authentic good strikes me that that's a poetic story there. And, you know, your internal thought, as I heard is, you know, I gotta get, I gotta man up, I gotta get my ship together. And my mind went to your Manning up by letting him take off your shades. Right? All of you as a man, right? Yeah, all of you as a human. Right? And why, you know, you're, he's looking up to you, he, you know, your strength. Yours, right. And if it's a strength in a rock that can resonate with the feelings he's having of separation, you know, from his friend and from you. That's pretty powerful. Right? It allows him that freedom going forward to know that the strong men can cry?
Blue Netherclift 18:39
Yeah. That's good to hear. Because I think I think I misunderstood maybe I didn't misunderstand. But from a pre, from an from a counselor, though, we're seeing around attachment with Seth. Fantastic, really great experience. But there was there was one we were talking once about, allowing him to express his emotions, but me not. And I may have got this wrong, but me not breaking down so that he felt every time he would express them so that he would maybe hold back like I shouldn't express his motion, because that's going to fall apart again. And so that's where I think I was like, Oh, where's the right balance there? And I want to be authentic, because I totally agree with that sentiment of, I think my grown men should cry. I don't think that they need to, like dust themselves off all the time and pretend there isn't an emotion when there is an emotion. So I think I just need to figure out what that fine line is, I guess, or maybe there isn't a fine line? I don't know. To me,
Todd Kettner 19:41
I think the the it's a relative risk. Right? Right. How often are you in a situation where you're, you know, so overcome with emotions that your seven year old has to take care of you?
Blue Netherclift 19:56
Yes, that doesn't have very rarely. Yeah, I did. Probably not. Like these kind of tears, just, you know, gentle tears and a bit of emotion being, you know, just, yeah, just being not motion. It's like watching a sad movie. It's that kind of Absolutely,
Todd Kettner 20:09
absolutely. And so you're, you're being there with him and the experience, and you're allowing him in the same way that, you know, you talked about your friends coming around you. Even though it's not the traditional, let's go talk by the talk, talk about our feelings. By the way. You're saying to me, it's okay to have a range of emotions, you're modeling that. And, you know, it's sort of ironic, I think, that we have this unit demit dimensional view of masculinity, perhaps that says, you know, the, you know, boys don't cry, men don't break down, you know, those kind of things. And it's, it's mostly, it's almost exclusively to the emotion of sadness, right? Yeah, it's not to the emotion of anger. Yeah, you know, you know, we can get, okay. Yeah, fight for a belt, and, you know, all of these things. And if we're not in the cage, you know, of MMA, we're paying money to, you know, be in the virtual cage with it. And so, you know, the emotion of anger, we, you know, it's almost like, in some cases, there's, there's no filter on it, but with the emotions of connection, love and sadness related to, you know, so you know, it's pretty ironic to me, so I think for most of us, most of the time has been, the balance is clear that we need to be more authentic about more parts of ourselves, both to our own selves, and to our partners and to our kids, right?
Blue Netherclift 21:46
Totally. There's a documentary called the mask, if you've seen it, would you recommend that?
Todd Kettner 21:51
It sounds familiar, but I can't, I can't pull it up in my memory enough to say 100
Blue Netherclift 21:56
it's probably a few years old now. But it's exactly that it's about this idea of lots lots of teenage boys and boys of all ages, I guess a man as well being interviewed around this, how free they feel their emotions, and the fact that they were always told to be brave, that's a big, brave, don't cry, be brave. And he's still here, you still hear it around. So yeah, I'm very conscious of that. I'm very conscious of that word, actually be brave. As much I try not to say that to Seth. But it's exactly that really, it's like no, if you want to cry, let it out. That's what I try and encourage Seth to do.
Todd Kettner 22:30
Also the philosopher Kierkegaard, I could have this wrong that said, without fear, there is no courage. It doesn't make sense, right? By definition, unless in less we worry unless we care unless we're sometimes scared. shitless there is no courage, right? It would just be Yeah. And, and something that we don't know, well in society, is that emotions aren't a continuum from you know, so called negative emotions, like sadness and anger, you know, loneliness to happiness, and joy and exuberance, right? But in fact, all of us are running all of the time with you know, two dials on the mixer board. One is presence or absence of negative emotions, and presence or absence of positive emotions, right? So this explains why, you know, we can laugh and cry at a movie, why we can feel deep connection and desolate sadness at a funeral. Right? It's not like it's a unitary continuum. It's to continue that are constantly in flux all the time.
Blue Netherclift 23:50
Yeah, trying to trying to read Yeah, it's interesting that that because you just, I feel like you learned a lot about yourself. I feel like a part of it is a lot of reflection on how I was raised. And what I was maybe lacking or maybe me overcompensating and some of those areas as well, hence the lot of engagement. You know, I think probably generational generational difference, right? Like you know, back but my dad's upbringing, you know, post war and then you know, very English upbringing very strict that children seen and not heard knowing that place and that kind of peace. And then a dad who I know and I have great parents, but very much my dad was working Saturday was mowing the lawn Sunday was washing the car. And every year we'd have a two week holiday somewhere camping. But the engagement and this you know that sort of from a young age, that's how that's how you saw dad was like a strong dad who goes out working and earning money. And I feel like I carry that blueprint of what is expected. in lots of different ways, you know, in, get a job, get a mortgage, get a, you know, do all those things that society, traditional society expects of you. And it's really hard to shake that. And that's where I would say I feel blessed to have found the companies, because I feel like I found my people and my community. And I feel like it is a little different from some other places. And, and I don't think it's, there's been a sea change, I think there's still a lot of people that are raising their kids in that way. But I do feel blessed to find a place where Yeah, I can kind of there's commonality in that respect. And other people raising their kids in the same way with that kind of engagement and schooling and you know, these things is that Can I throw back to you? Like, how? How are you with the raising of the kids, your kids are obviously a lot older than mine now. But you must have been through that. A, like you're a professional, you're working man. Like how do you get that balance? Right? Like, I mean, you and you live in the CUNY so you've you've got that with the weekend, ski hill or whatever, but
Todd Kettner 26:03
Yeah, great question Blue. Um, you know, when we were looking at different places to live, you know, we, we looked at it probably seven or eight different locations around the Pacific Northwest. And one thing that really struck us about Nelson was when we asked around, and we found out it was a town of 10,000 people with 1200 kids and youth soccer. You know, there's, there's something that said something about a community writ large in terms of the importance of activity and family connectedness and kid kid positive activities, right. Um, and so, I mean, I guess we've tried to do that, you know, I'm trying to have activities that we're engaged when, with our kids on, you know, teaching them to ski cook, you know, coaching their, their soccer team, their hockey team, that kind of thing. And trying to always be aware of the balance of when work calls too much. When both in terms of, you know, hours worked in a week or unusual hours worked. And equally as importantly, you know, for people in many professions, whether it's business or helping profession like I'm in having the being aware of the tendency to have emotional and psychological space invaded, even when I'm at home, right, like in my own mind, as I'm going through the day, or as I'm thinking about some of the work that I'm doing and inviting both kids and you know, my partner to feel okay, calling me on you bringing me back to the present. And then intentionally building communities of other guys who are going through the same thing, right? Like I have a men's book club that I didn't start but was invited to and I've been going to for years, we'll call it man book.
Blue Netherclift 28:04
That's awesome. I love that
Todd Kettner 28:06
Literary Reference to the Man Booker Prize there. And then another group that I did sort of initiate where five of us who were dads and partners and, you know, enjoy life, but also struggle with the inevitabilities of that kind of thing where we try and get together every other month.
Blue Netherclift 28:30
Sorry, that's that's as a couple that's a couple's thing. Do you come together? Yeah, that's just guys. Oh, that's just guys again. Yeah, that's really good.
Todd Kettner 28:37
Yeah, I thought yeah. That's about to do a week long trip every year. We've been paddling and
Blue Netherclift 28:42
oh,
Todd Kettner 28:44
we went sailing and destination sound and other time we just did four or five days out on kidney lake where it's it's just us as, as dads and partners, and then
Blue Netherclift 28:57
when you guys are out there, you're paddling, you've had a long day sitting around the campfire. Are you talking about dad stuff? And about the missus and about the kids and about life as a dad? Or are you just being present with each other in the moment? You know, talking about whatever. Like, is it you consciously taking time to? Do you know, I mean? Yeah,
Todd Kettner 29:22
um, yeah, it's both, you know, some of us just having that sense of camaraderie, for sure. And just, you know, having fun. But our intention from the beginning was to, I think the first time we ever got together, we watched that happy documentary. Have you seen that? Yeah. You know, and then we circulated some articles, you know, on the parenting. You know, we've talked about books. So yeah, we get together and I'm the counselor. We're hanging out on a beer. We're also you know, talking about sex. We're talking about partners, we're talking about our kids and our struggles with our kids. And our joys with our kids and you know, our frustrations. And we've sort of, you know, built a culture around that. That was right. Yeah. The initial intention. But, you know, we have to kind of continually sort of remind ourselves that this is part of what we're about.
Blue Netherclift 30:17
Yeah, yeah. I love that. I think for me, too, is I it's time. And I feel a part of me too, is I'm really good when I focus on one thing, but when there's multiple things going on, I can definitely I can feel the stress like with work. I'm really committed right now. I'm not sure it's because there's new exciting projects. I'm doing a podcast for work. I'm working from home and it's hard to switch off and take time, like I've been finding myself almost hurting because I work from home. And plus the pandemic makes some situations a little tricky. So I end up blog, I'm just going to stay here. But yeah, making like tomorrow, me and a friend we're talking about going out into the bush. And I feel like we keep doing this, but something will come up. And if it doesn't happen, I'll be quite happy because I can just sit on the couch. Just not. It's taking too many things on like, kind of, yeah, it's it's almost overwhelming. It's like I wanna spend time with my son, I want to ski on work, I want to go hang out with my buddy, I want to do a podcast. And it gets almost the point where you can't function so you don't do anything. Just go back to work again. And that's the that's the happy place or the easy place to be. But yeah, path of least resistance. Yeah, totally. But I do one thing that I've really pushed for and created and I think in this in the community that we live, as you're probably aware, a lot of people do do the four day workweek and that's a saving grace for me that's what really has shifted things for us as a family and makes it manageable to do all these different things.
Todd Kettner 31:48
Yeah, and it's, you know, part of a family friendly workplace and we often think about moms and and childcare and that kind of stuff. And if if we just started thinking about it, like lots of countries, including Canada now do about you know, parental leave, you know, then I think will will grow better, man.
Blue Netherclift 32:10
Yeah, most families now both parents are working. So everything has to shift.
Todd Kettner 32:17
Thank you so much for having me Blue. It's great to hear your story of working hard to remain super important influence in in your son's life. And I love that story of letting him take off your glasses and ncu being a courageous debt.
Blue Netherclift 32:35
Really appreciate you making the time to chat today. And hopefully you can we can do it again at some point.
Todd Kettner 32:41
Cheers.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai